To be clear, Doechii’s full-length debut, Alligator Bites Never Heal, is a mixtape according to her; one that she says came together just a month before its release last week. “I literally called my label and I was like, ‘I am going to drop a mixtape on August 30th. This is what my plan is. This is what I want to do,’” she tells Rolling Stone over Zoom from Los Angeles, where she and her label, Top Dawg Entertainment, are based. “I really only came to that conclusion [in] July. It was out of this new place of clarity and sobriety. I was coming out of a very, very dark place in my career and within myself.”
Yet, as soon as the streets got a hold of it, listeners, creators, and publications – including this one – were quick to call it one of the best albums of the year, mixtape designation be damned. Her label boss, Anthony “Top Dawg” Tiffith, said he got the same feeling from the record as he did from Kendrick Lamar’s breakout smash Section.80. Hip-Hop DX’s Jeremy Hecht compared it to SZA’s CTRL, which rose in status to one of the best albums of its decade as fans across genre clamored about it more and more over time.
Doechii — who already has three wide-ranging hits under her belt in the 2000s R&B coded “What It Is (Block Boy),” “Yucky Blucky Fruitcake,” which goes from buzzy hip-hop to boom bap, and the housey “Alter Ego” — flexes her versatility all over Alligator Bites. The track “Denial is a River,” is a prime example, as she cheekily plays both a mentor and herself processing infidelity, drug abuse, and depression that she tells Rolling Stone she really experienced. Above a clip of the song on X that’s garnered 1.8 million impressions, one fan wrote, “Doechii bringing back storytelling to female rap, y’all need to give her her flowers.” (Storytelling has certainly been around in women’s rap, but it’s fair to say Doechii’s feels uniquely robust.)
Yet, ahead of Alligator Bites’s release, Doechii made a pact with herself: she wouldn’t look for reactions or responses. Instead, she tells us that she spent its drop day swaddled up at home, watching cartoons and eating Frosted Flakes. “I told myself, ‘I’m going to turn off social media, delete Instagram.’ I literally just ate food. I ate my comfort meals and my comfort snacks. I got cozy and I just watched Total Drama Island. That was it. I was like, ‘I have to detach from this.’”
The mixtape was a spiritual one for Doechii, who says it was borne of the real turmoil you can hear throughout the record: Tenison with her label, self-doubt, failing relationships, and a difficult adjustment to the fast-paced, high-pressure life of a budding rap star. “I was just like, ‘I’ve said everything that I need to say, and I think that I don’t want to take responsibility for how people perceive me. Not this time. My only responsibility is to process my feelings, and I’ve already done that through the music.”
Here, Doechii goes deep on the making of Alligator Bites Never Heal, from correcting a serious misunderstanding of “Denial is a River,” to submitting it for the Grammys, to what she’s learned from Doja Cat and Tyler, the Creator.
At 19 tracks, albums as long as Alligator Bites Never Heal can feel long and drawn out. Instead, your mixtape has great peaks and valleys – there’s such a diversity of style and approach across the songs. It’s so well-curated. How did you accomplish that?
Curating it, I went in with the intention of context. That was a big thing for me. Sometimes projects can feel long when there’s no context to what you’re talking about. There’s no story or no narration to build on. I felt like it was necessary for me to tell my story in detail and in many different ways, through many different beats. And it was important for us to go in chronological order of what has happened to me, how that has made me feel, how I overcame it, and where I am now. And I don’t think we started really getting into some turnt, lit shit until towards the end of the project.
That was for a reason – I felt like we needed to feel pain and we needed to hurt in the beginning. Even in some songs, I made light of it, like “Denial is a River.” I chose a humorous way to talk about dark things, but I think we needed to discuss [them]. That was my goal – for us to hurt in the beginning, for us to heal in the middle, and for us to celebrate at the end. And that’s why I feel it doesn’t feel long, because you’re on a journey emotionally.
“Denial is a River” is such an incredible song. I think it’s one of the best songs I’ve heard this year. When did you make that one?
That was during the Swamp Sessions, so I made that one in August as well. I think that was two weeks before we put it out.
Are you interested in acting at all? Do you have a theater background?
Yes, I do. I have a theater background. I love acting.
Do you see yourself putting acting first sometime in your career?
I think so. Once I’m probably done with music, I can see myself transitioning into acting.
Who is the conversation that happens throughout “Denial is a River” with? How do you think about her, the person you’re talking to?
So this character is actually in continuation of my first EP, called Oh The Places You’ll Go. The concept was I was enrolled in some creative school and this teacher took a particular interest in me. She was coaching me through healing my inner child on that EP. She’s been gone for a while, so I brought that character back because I felt like I needed her to talk through some things now.
I see some people online speculating that “Denial is a River” is a callback to a Wendy Williams clip. Did that influence the title at all?
Yes. “Denial is a river in Egypt. Your husband is gay.”
That is so funny. Over the weekend, I was also really surprised to learn that some people thought that part of “Denial is a River” is transphobic, in reference to lyrics where you describe a man that you were dating cheating on you with another man after you had incorrectly assumed he was cheating with a woman. Have you heard that backlash?
No, I haven’t, but I think that if you read too deeply into it, then you could probably misconstrue it as that. But no, I’m saying that I was assuming he was cheating on me with a girl, and then I saw that he was cheating on me with a man and I realized that my man was DL. That’s really it.
I thought that was pretty clear when I first heard it. I also thought those claims were interesting because you did an interview with my colleague, Delisa, discussing your own queerness and feeling most at home within your queer community.
I feel like for one, to address the line, it was very clear, but I think that if you overread into it…Of course people can get it confused if you’re looking for something that’s not there. It’s very clear what I’m saying. That was the story. It just happened. Even in the line after that when [the teacher] is like, “Do you want to unpack that? Do you want to talk about it?” And I’m like, “Nah, fuck it. Let’s just move on. It is what it is.” Regardless of who you cheated on me with, you cheated on me. That’s the point.
Later in the song you talk about your ex trashing your place and causing $100,000 worth of damage. Is that based on a true story?
Yes, 100%. That’s a true story as well, but that’s a different ex, a different era, but yes, that actually did happen and it cost me a lot of money. Yeah, I have really been through it with exes. Man, people act crazy.
I also like that you don’t really get deep into the relationship reflections until later on the project. There’s a line on “Death Roll” where you say, “Ex my fiance, can’t make it work.” Then, “Beverly Hills” sounds like the disintegration of a relationship. Are there several different relationships that you’re talking about across this?
I think so, which is why I don’t really get into the specifics of each person. I don’t think this whole thing about me unpacking my relationships and failed relationships has ever been about the other person necessarily, but more so about the lessons that I learned.
It’s more so about how these breakups have affected me. I can identify a red flag really quickly 1725559197. I also know what I really will not tolerate. By the time I get to “Beverly Hills” and I’m talking about, “I’m sick of tossing over crumbs in my silk sheets. I’m sick of waking up and seeing piss on the toilet seats,” I’m tired of it. That’s me like, “You know what? This is it. I will not keep making the same mistakes.” I’m really releasing all of my exes at once in that song.
I connected the reflections on the relationships to another overall theme of the mixtape – you figuring out how to manage your career right now. You’re signed, you’re now living in LA after growing up in Florida, and there are these drug habits you’ve picked up, but then, on “Beverly Hills,” it also sounds like your career is impacting that relationship too. Is that an accurate read?
Yeah, that is correct. I think that being a successful woman, I have had my relationship be affected by my career, how much I’m working, how much I’m making. It’s been an interesting thing to witness. I’m blessed and fortunate enough now to be in a relationship where my partner is completely understanding and supports me, but I think that I’ve realized when you date fragile people or undeveloped people, this career can be threatening to them
I think it was really bold how you tackled having differences with your label. So I mean, first of all, you’re signed to two, TDE and Capitol. Is there one entity that you were finding yourself butting heads with, or is it both of them?
I think that the most important point is not which label it was or what label is doing what, because what I’m not going to do is victimize myself or villainize any of my labels at all. I think what it was really about is the introspection of navigating my job as a personal and spiritual thing that I practice, and also balancing how it is also a commodity; it is also a business. So juggling those two things, when I have lyrics about making TikTok music and things like that, this is me being transparent about having to try to navigate with my label between what it is that I want to do, the music that I want to make, and the music that they want me to make. That’s a whole thing within itself. I think what you guys are listening to, you’re experiencing me figuring that relationship out.
One of the successes of the album is that you bring specificity to your story, but also enough emotion, attitude, and smart writing that it’s still engaging even if you’re not in the industry. I really like that idea about the commodification of music, because that’s something all of us are experiencing right now. Capitalism is whooping all of our asses. It’s nice to see you frame yourself in the middle of that.
Yeah, I think that’s exactly what it is. It’s about just finding that balance. I found that I create the best music when I’m creating from a place of just writing for therapy instead of writing for moments – writing for a club or writing for radio or writing for a hit. In the end, the artist and the label usually want the same thing, but how we get there is different. And I think that I have figured out how I’m going to get there.
How do you keep yourself sharp as a writer? Do you have a routine?
It’s a mix of both. When I feel moved, I do move, but I think it also is important to build muscle and have a sense of discipline. Something that I practice in my artistic routine is this method that I created called A Song a Day. It’s basically when you set a timer for 30 minutes to an hour, maybe more, but you write a song in that one hour and whatever you come out with is what you get. It helps me practice being in the moment, being fearless, and also just getting things done and being consistent. That’s what I like to do to stay out of the funk and stay in the flow.
One of the heavier things on the project is you dealing with what sounds like depression. Do you characterize it as that?
I would say yes. I’m really picky with that word only because I have been depressed probably twice in my life. It’s not like it’s just a season of downs. You know when you are depressed, I’m talking about you physically can’t move and you’re paralyzed in fear. I think that, yes, I did experience that once in this journey, and it may not have been this year or last year, but it definitely came up in the lead up to this project. By the grace of God, I was able to pull myself out of it, but I wouldn’t even say myself. I would say the help of my friends, my family, and God really pulled me out of that space and pulled me into a space where I’m even able to talk about it. My God, that just makes me feel so grateful to even be there.
I’m glad to hear that you’re doing better. You did describe your musical process as spiritual at a few points in this conversation , and I know that could mean something different to different people. Your labelmate Zacari and I had a really great conversation about what that meant for him. Can you tell me more about what that means for you?
That’s a good question. Let me think about that for a second.
Take your time.
Not every time, but sometimes the best music that I create is a conversation with me and God. It’s almost like another form of prayer. It is therapy. It is when I’m being vulnerable and I’m really working out my own thoughts and feelings on the beat. Y’all are experiencing me come to the same realizations. We’re both experiencing it at the same time. I think that’s when music becomes very spiritual to me, when I am literally listening for what God is telling me. It’s almost like I’m not moving the pen. It’s really God moving through me. It’s when I’m a vessel. And then I have moments where it’s not that deep and I’m just having fun.
At what point in this process did you feel any fear?
With “Denial Is a River,” I felt some fear there because it’s really me being extremely literal and vulnerable about my situation. It is a very vulnerable thing, especially as an artist. Just a little backstory, I went through a period where I was afraid to be vulnerable in my music, which is odd for me because that’s all I usually do. I was saying to my engineer, “I don’t want to talk about my feelings because right now all I feel is negativity. All I feel is sadness. I feel anger. I’m upset with everything and everybody. And my fans don’t want to hear that.” But my engineer was like, “It’s not for them, it’s for you. You need to talk about it.” So, it was very scary for me to be that vulnerable on “Denial Is a River,” which is why I think that I made it funny; so that it could be a bit easier to process the darkness of that record.
I was watching this clip of you talking with Annabelle of That Good Shit about who’d you want to collaborate with. You said, “Tyler, the Creator, because I think that we would just talk.” Do you think talking things out is also an important part of your process?
100%. I am a talker. I need to talk about it. I have to say things out loud.
I saw that Tyler was at your release party. Have y’all gotten to know each other?
We went to lunch once. Tyler’s super cool. He’s given me all my flowers and has given me props on just all my music, which is incredible because I look up to him as an artist. So for him to just verbally tell me how great I am… I’m a super fan. So it really touched me a lot and it made me feel like I’m doing something right. He’s just so incredible and super sweet.
I’m really curious about that, because I remember when I was in early high school and Odd Future was coming out. I’m a little older than you, so I’m wondering what it feels like to develop a relationship with someone whose music you’ve lived with for this long?
Honestly, Tyler feels just like how his music feels. I think that he has been walking in his authenticity for so long now. He’s one of the freest people that I’ve ever come across. He is just completely rested in himself and exactly how his music feels is how his presence feels. And he’s super just warm and chill and just fucking cool. He’s just so cool.
The other thing that we saw in the days after the mixtape was released was an older video of Doja Cat also literally giving you flowers when you opened for her on her Scarlet tour. What did you take away from that experience with her?
Honestly, I learned just a lot about how a proper tour is supposed to function. I really admired how on point her team was. Watching her be a leader in her space and in her environment really inspired me for one day when I have an arena tour. I think just watching her do her thing, and even how she took care of me and took care of my team and made sure that we were good – she allowed me to have props on stage, which is such a blessing. She just really let me be myself, and I really, really appreciated that, and I did not take it for granted. So I think that’s what I took away from that tour; “This is how a boss, a leader runs an arena tour.” She did an impeccable job.
Are you thinking of touring this mixtape?
We’re talking about it. We’ll see. We’ll see. I am in between waiting and then I’m in between going on tour, but I haven’t decided yet. Another future outlook question: it seems like this mixtape got released just in time for Grammy consideration. Are you submitting it?
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. [Pivots to her team] Is that okay for me to say? Does that fuck with my submission? Isa? Erin? Can I say that? [Doechii’s representatives confirm she can indeed say that. Doechii sounds excited and relieved] I submitted.
What else are excited about right now? What are you looking forward to most?
I am most excited about performing and just connecting with my fans over this new music. Oh my God, I have been so ready to perform new music. I’ve been tired of performing “Yucky Blucky.” I’m sick of performing the same music and all my old music, so it just feels so good to be able to reset my catalog and perform all of this.
There was actually one thing I wanted to circle back to about Alligator Bites. I’m curious about how you approach balancing nostalgia with innovation, especially with these boom-bap beats, because I think that it could have been very easy try to capture that feeling through samples, but you took an original approach.
I think that when you’re curating a new sound…how do I explain this? Boom bap isn’t new. These type of beats are not new. But I think when you take a sample from another song, it boxes you into literally that song that you sampled. It’s always going to be that song, but if you recreate things and you avoid samples and you focus on your own sound, you can expand on what has already been done for years.
From the audience’s side, there’s been a period where some of us have gotten exhausted by the samples, but I think that we still also love what our OGs have come up with, and there’s a reason that certain music stands the test of time.
There’s a space that I feel like that we need to fill in hip-hop right now. This project, sonically, feels nostalgic, but it also feels forward and it feels fresh. I felt the importance of going back to the roots of hip-hop, even how I’m rapping. There’s importance and there’s honor and tradition and I think that that is important for hip-hop. I think we just need to take a beat for a second and get back to maintaining traditions in hip-hop, talking about our feelings, being vulnerable in hip-hop again, and making sure that the heart of hip-hop stays alive, which is the art and the skill of beat selection, rapping, and lyrical composition.
