David Byrne admits he was not ‘always the most pleasant’ to work with whilst in the band Talking Heads:
“I got to be a little bossy…A little bit of a bossy pants and I knew what I wanted. I didn’t know how to get it in a kind of nice cooperative way”
Louis: When was the last time you played with Talking Heads?
David: I think when we got inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Louis: Which was 2002, something like that… And we can pass over this if you prefer, but it’s part of Talking Heads law that there was friction within the band and that you were difficult to work with at times.
David: I won’t deny that. I think, as I said, my social skills were limited. But if I had a kind of an artistic vision, like, this Stop Making Sense show, that tour, that performance, I would say, “oh, okay, here’s what I think we should do”. And, “we’re all going wear grey”…I got to be a little bossy…A little bit of a bossy pants and I knew what I wanted. I didn’t know how to get it in a kind of nice cooperative way. It was more like, okay, it has to be this, which is often true of musicians and bands when they’re younger, they have an idea of what it has to be and so it’ll be like, no, the drum sound has to be like this and that means the world. It’s actually not as important as all that, but when you’re that age, it can be everything. Yes, so I know that I was not always the most pleasant person to work with.
(…)
Louis: Sometimes I hear it described as your band, you know, David Byrne and The Talking Heads, or sometimes it’s Talking Heads like a band, which is a kind of collection of equals. Right. Which was it do you think?
David: Well, a bit of both. I think sometimes as I said, sometimes I had an idea stuck in my head about this is what we’re going to do and I would kind of push for it, but it would’ve never worked if it wasn’t a great band…If we didn’t play incredibly well together
David Byrne reveals how The Talking Heads song, The Book I Read, was intended to be a love song:
“I thought, the person that I’m addressing is the book and obviously that was not successful because it didn’t communicate that.”
Louis: The strange lyrics… and again, I want to bring the audience with us. So picture me aged 14/15 and then, I don’t know what I was listening to, I guess Depeche Mode and Human League, and it’s sort of alienated synth rock, but mainly about love and or being lonely. And then there were songs that you’d written. Just much more cryptic in a way. They weren’t about love. That was for sure. I remember there’s one, The Book I Read, it seems to just be about a book that you’ve read and enjoyed. It’s not clear what the book is about.
David: That one you picked, oddly enough, was intended to be a love song.
Louis: Really?
David: I thought, the person that I’m addressing is the book and obviously that was not successful because it didn’t communicate that.
Louis: I’m very literal sometimes.
David: I’m willing to admit that sometimes things weren’t successful. That song also was very much a failed attempt to imitate club music that was around at the time. And in this case, I think it was a group called Casey and The Sunshine Band and I thought, oh, I want to write a song like that. That’s the way I like it. I want write a song that has that kind of vibe and feel and whatever, but do it in my own way. Didn’t quite hit the target in that department, but I mean, sometimes by missing the target, you hit something else.
Louis: Create a new target.
David Byrne reveals how he called up Spike Lee to let him know before apologising publicly about an old video that resurfaced wearing blackface: “I’m just want you to want you to know that I’m going to announce that I did this”. And he said, “David, I know you people know you. Don’t worry about it.”
Louis: The other kind of elephant in the room, of the culture, I guess, but this idea of cancel culture… I mean, that actually suggests I endorse that term, which I don’t know if I necessarily do. But is that on your radar at all? Do you have a view on any of that?
David: Yeah, I think it’s nuanced. If someone has actually done kind of not-so-good things, kind of recently, and tried to kind of hide them, then I thought, oh, it’s fine to call that out. Sometimes people are cancelled if they’ve done something way in the past, 20, 30 years ago, I feel like human beings can change. We can learn from our mistakes. We do make mistakes that, in that case, let’s look at what they’ve done since then, if they made a mistake and it’s not this really horrible thing. Then let’s see if they’ve kind of made amends and how they’ve behaved since then because maybe that was just a mistake. And the thing with the internet is you can dredge up the past on everybody and embarrass almost anybody by something they’ve done in the past.
Louis: Yes. Although it kind of seems to stop around 2000 or 2005. Like anything pre-digital media… then you have to actually go into the stacks or a newspaper.
David: It’s a bit more work. Some years ago, I realized that this promotional video that I did for Stop Making Sense when it first came out in the mid-eighties. That I did this little funny little thing where I interviewed myself as these, all these different characters. A woman, an old man, a black man, a whole number of characters. And I realized, oh god, look, I’m in black face. It was not done as a parody or caricature or anything like, but that was one of the characters. And I realized, oh god, I would never do that now. that was a long time ago. This is a clip that’s available online. It’s probably on YouTube. It’s probably available in other places as well. So I thought, this is not hidden. This is not something that’s on some obscure piece of videotape or whatever. It’s right there. So I said, okay and I made an announcement and said, I did this. Here it is. I did this. I would never do this now, but here it is.
Louis: You self-cancelled.
David: I self-cancelled. And I called up Spike Lee and said, I did this. “I’m just want you to want you to know that I’m going to announce that I did this”. And he said, “David, I know you people know you. Don’t worry about it.” But at the same time, there were a few organizations that did cancel me…there was a speaking engagement that said we can’t have you talk. That was a few years ago.
David Byrne talks about possibly being on the spectrum and how being a musician has helped with his social skills: “Making music, working with other people on music, playing together with musicians on stage, it becomes this very ecstatic, transcendent kind of social thing and I thought, okay, over the years, time passes and you kind of change after a bit.”
Louis: You’ve spoken a little bit about possibly being on the spectrum. Which kind of, when I read that, I was like, I didn’t know that. But it kind of, that sort of adds up, right?
David: Yeah. I didn’t know about it either. Well, when was this? Probably, that might have been in the nineties or something, where a friend, there were articles in magazines and things like that about this idea of spectrum.I mean, there’s fairly severe autism where people don’t talk at all. It’s very, very difficult for them to communicate. And then there’s milder and milder, and until it’s on the very mild side, it’s tends to be people who can be very focused on an idea, maybe have difficulty in social situations and things like that. And I said, “oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I’ve recognized that”. I’ve never thought of it as a disability, but, yeah, I can see that there’s a part of me that is like that.
(…)
Louis: Do you think, if you are neurodivergent or if there is any little bit of that, having spoken about the ways in which that can be advantageous or that it forces you to maybe navigate things in a different way. That, you break things down and figure out processes or you become curious about different things that then feels fresh and gives you an insight that people can connect with? But I could imagine it at times it might make things difficult as well, especially if you struggle at times to read emotions or if there’s parts of life that feel, less intelligible. I mean, do you think in any way it’s been a challenge for you?
David: Oh, occasionally, yes…I’ve had the experience where someone will say, well, I clearly said no and then I’ll kind of replay the conversation and the word no was not there. But they expected their expressions or their facial expression or the nuances of what they were saying to be read and clearly interpreted as a no. This is not me trying to do something inappropriate.
Louis: Thank you for that clarification.
David: I wasn’t able to read that. That said, I’m a lot better at that now than I was in the past. I’m a lot more comfortable with people now than I was in the past. So it changes. I’ll give music credit for that too. Making music, working with other people on music, playing together with musicians on stage, it becomes this very ecstatic, transcendent kind of social thing and I thought, okay, over the years, time passes and you kind of change after a bit.
Louis and David discuss the theatrics of Donald Trump:“I haven’t been to one of his rallies either, but I gather it’s kind of a riveting performance even though when you literally translate what he’s saying sometimes it’s complete gibberish.”
Louis: Have you met Trump?
David: No. No.
Louis: I feel like he’s copying your big suit.
(David laughs)
Louis: Have you noticed how big his suit is?
David: It is pretty big. It’s long. The tie, as everybody knows the tie…he believes it has a slimming effect to have this long tie
Louis: and also a very long suit jacket as well.
David: Yeah, it’s very kind of presentational. You know its TV, it’s a show
Louis: He has a sense of theatrics. Do you see him as a showman?
David: Absolutely.
Louis: Because his live events are like live shows and you’ve spoken over the years about your adoption of preachily cadences or a kind of call and response. I guess gospel influenced, preachily delivery famously on once in a lifetime, where you set a repeated phrase, you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack, you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile. Apologies for, maybe you won’t appreciate the comparison, but I think he’s doing something similar at his live events and his ability to command the crowd, like so that that power clearly resonates with people.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I haven’t been to one of his rallies either, but I gather it’s kind of a riveting performance even though when you literally translate what he’s saying sometimes it’s complete gibberish.
Louis I feel like you appreciate gibberish.
David: Yes I’m aware that how things are said is as important as what’s being said.
