Reneé Rapp and Cynthia Erivo Believed in Themselves When No One Else Did

W
ithin minutes of sitting down with each other at Electric Lady Studios in Manhattan’s Greenwich Village, Reneé Rapp and Cynthia Erivo realize that they’re both Capricorns. They gush over how cosmic this meeting is, after years of mutual admiration from afar. “Now it all makes sense!” Erivo says. “A Capricorn is someone who knows their own self and what they want, what they will stand for, and what they will not. It’s always really fun and refreshing to see.” Rapp agrees: “You’re, verbatim, exactly the same way. Like, 100 percent.”

Once they get going, it’s hard to get the two stars of stage, screen, and stereo to stop: They immediately connect on their clear-eyed visions of making their dreams come true from the jump. Along the way, they open up to each other about writing their next albums, and Erivo’s upcoming role as Elphaba in the film adaptation of Wicked (Rapp is a big fan).

Rapp: I first saw you when I was 16. The second Broadway show I ever saw was The Color Purple. You started performing, and I was like, “OK, she’s just different. On another planet, on another level.” I immediately was so enamored with you because your presence is equally as amazing as your voice. I was like, “Oh, people are really singing here.” And I was obsessed.

Erivo: That’s so insane. I can’t believe that was your second show to have ever seen. How soon after did you experience Broadway?

Rapp: Two or three years later.

Erivo: What was that like for you?

Rapp: I really wanted to do music, and I was working in and out of New York when I was in high school because I was recording. And I had switched to this performing-arts high school because my parents really wanted me to go to college. I was like, “Not for me.” And they were like, “The fuck are you gonna do? You don’t do well in school. You’re not really picking up anything on the side. It’s not going well for you.” I was like, “Harsh, but correct.”

Erivo: It’s also early! There’s so much time for all of that to happen. You were literally discovering yourself.

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Rapp: Bro, super early. I innately knew I didn’t want to go to school. So I switched to this performing-arts high school and basically followed, or at least attempted to follow, what [Hadestown star] Eva Noblezada [had done].

Erivo: It’s interesting because when you were on Broadway, I think there was a change happening about what was on and how you could do it. The style was changing, and it was becoming far more varied, which is great.

Rapp: Well, I had watched you do it. It was just different. I would listen to your stuff in the car, and I was like, “She’s doing it!” And it’s just who you are and how you show up. It’s not like you’re doing something to be different. It’s your voice, it’s your tone, it’s your presence. It was intoxicating.

Erivo: You said you always knew that you’re gonna do music.… Crazy way to prove to your parents that you could get a job.

Rapp: Definitely insane.

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Erivo: Did [Broadway] help give liftoff into who we know now?

Rapp: One hundred percent. I had auditioned for Mean Girls, and my agents were like, “You’re just too young.” That was the thing I wanted to be in because I knew that Tina [Fey] and Lorne [Michaels] were doing it. I was like, “I would like to know them.” I auditioned for a couple months, and then I was basically just like, “I want to do this, but you have to know that I am equally as grateful for this opportunity as I want to do music. So if you agree to help me, I’m doing this.”

Erivo: So you worked with them for the purposes of getting music done?

Rapp: I just knew what I wanted. I’ve always been under the impression that theater is very hierarchical, and it’s very like, “We sit behind this table, so we tell you if you’re gonna be good enough for this.” I just think that’s bullshit. So I was like, “I appreciate this. Holy shit, I cannot believe that I get to do this,” and also, “Help me, too.” I’m doing this to do more, not doing this to stay here.

Erivo: I think we sometimes are ashamed or afraid to say, “I want to do this, and I want to grow beyond this.” Because the growth beyond also means that if I come back, I’m gonna be different. I’m gonna feel different. It has to have elevated. I felt the same.… I knew I wanted to do The Color Purple when it came to London. I was doing Sister Act, and we heard that it was coming in, and I was like, “Oh, I’m supposed to be doing that. I’m gonna do that.” Someone was like, “Would you be [an understudy]?” And I was like, “I would, but that’s not what I want. I want the role.” I was meant to play that role. There was nothing anyone could tell me that would stop me. So many people said no.… I went in and didn’t hear back for two months after the audition. Then they were doing it in London at this little theater, 200-seater. I knew I was supposed to do it. I was like, “I just love this show.” That [production] is the reason we did it on Broadway.

Rapp: That’s so cool.

Erivo: Ben Brantley of The New York Times did a review of the show in London, and that sent us to Broadway. My entire life changed.

Rapp: It’s just so interesting to hear you talk about it because I feel that way in the back of my head all the time. I know exactly what I want to do, but trusting it is sometimes tough. You knew that that’s exactly what you wanted to do, and that’s exactly the role you were gonna play. You’re constantly convincing yourself of this thing. You actually believe it, but to [everyone] else—

Erivo: It looks insane. I know I sounded absolutely insane. I know I sounded crazy. I just felt so sure about what that was, and I think I’ve learned now to just listen to that. I’ve learned at this point, whatever is telling me to [do it] is telling me now, so I’ll follow.… My heart, gut, mind, whatever is telling me, so I’m just gonna do it. And nine times out of 10 it’s the best decision to make. Some people call it happy accidents, but I don’t think they’re accidents.

Rapp: I don’t think so, either. This is taking me out.… I always feel so strange saying this to people, because it makes me want to just crawl into a hole. But I’ve been such a huge fan of yours for a long time. But more important than fan, I’ve always looked up to you.

Erivo: I would have never known that! I would never have thought that at all.

I feel so sure that I’m obsessed with it. I’ve had my album name for months. Now I’m like, ‘This is gonna be amazing.’ —Reneé Rapp

Rapp: You’re like a vocal bible to teenagers in theater! I think that’s why I’m crying, because you’re so integral in something that I didn’t know I wanted to do, that I ended up doing, that ended up changing my life. The way you were doing it and the way you carry yourself and the way you move is just on a different planet.

Erivo: I’m blown away. The thing that I’m processing here is that the thing you are telling me is the thing I want to do. Now I’m getting emotional … because it’s not just showing up and singing. It’s not just being in a room and making sounds. It’s also trying to give permission to people to just be themselves. I think I spend my time trying to make sure that people know that that’s OK, because there’s so many other things telling you to be everything you’re not. All I’ve ever really done is be myself, and it means a lot.

Rapp: You know how everyone is like, “Don’t meet your heroes. It will change your opinion of them”? I definitely have had that, literally, so many times. But you are exactly as I imagined, pictured, seen — and like 10 times more.

Erivo: How are you feeling about your music right now, and what you’re moving into with new music?

Rapp: It’s kind of the same thing that we’re talking about.… I feel so sure that I’m obsessed with it. It’s everything that I want it to be. I’ve had my album name for months. I’ve known exactly what we’re moving into. This is the world we’re going into. My anxieties prior to that were not getting it, and now the world has actually been achieved, and not just an idea. Now I’m so stubborn. I’m like, “This is gonna be amazing.”

Erivo: If your DNA says things is good, then it’s probably great.

Rapp: It’s that innate sort of feeling. I’ve recorded so many songs here [at Electric Lady]. They’ve all been ass. Eight hours later, I’ve put these poor producers and writers through a session, and I’m like, “Yeah, we’re never recouping this one, boys. The day’s gone.” Writing is just kind of like that, I guess. Do you feel that way?

Erivo: The last year has been insane because I’ve been doing it at the same time as Wicked. So making a whole album and shooting that movie at the same time. I’m in London talking to my producer, who’s in L.A. Then we’d come together in L.A., record everything, do a big old week or two-week session. Then I’d go back and finish filming. Then we finally had this concentrated amount of time to move through everything. I’m really specific. There’s no partying in my studios. There’s no alcohol in my studios. It’s just me and a microphone, a writer, and a piano. And out of those sessions has come some really beautiful music, and I’m so excited to be able to share it. It’s exactly what I dreamed of. On my last album, I just didn’t get to do what I needed, and it wasn’t what it was supposed to be. I’m still proud of it because we made it in a pandemic.

Rapp: You probably have more space to be thoughtful and really intentional. I feel like every single project that you do, there’s always gonna be things on the next one that you’re like, “I wish this part of me was in the last one,” because you didn’t have the same thing at that time. Especially in a fucking pandemic, right?

Erivo: This one fills me with absolute joy because it’s all the things I’ve been through: pain, joy, the whole thing. I feel deeply connected to what we’ve managed to write. It feels almost like this is the first album.

Rapp: This is a dumbass question, but do you feel gassed for the rest of the year? I’m gassed for the rest of your year. I’m fucking thrilled.

Erivo: I saw [the Wicked film] for the first time a couple of months ago. I’ve been speaking to Jon Chu, our director, and he is finishing the last shot of the film, putting it all together. I’m just really excited. We’ve worked through the soundtrack — me and [Ariana Grande] have been working hard. We’re just excited for it to all come together, for people to see it. I’m very excited.

Rapp: Do you feel nerves?

Erivo: Yeah, obviously! Because I care. The day I stop feeling nervous about something I give a shit about, we got a problem. They’re the right kind of nerves. I’ve learned to decipher. I’ve definitely not listened to the nerves that go “You shouldn’t be here, you shouldn’t be doing this.” It bites me on the ass. But the other nerves, that feel like butterflies … those are the ones I’m getting right now.

Rapp: How do you decipher?

Erivo: There’s a difference. It always feels different. When I get nervousness in my brain, I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know if this is a good idea.” But then I get nervousness in my tummy, and it’s fine.

The day I stop feeling nervous about something I give a shit about, we got a problem. —Cynthia Erivo

Rapp: That’s a good point. I get a lot of nerves that are in the head. I’m like, “You should just push through. You don’t know what’s best for you.” I always you-don’t-know-what’s-best-for-you myself.

Erivo: We sometimes convince ourselves that we have no idea, but we do.

Rapp: Bro, I’m the most hard-headed person on the planet!

Erivo: [You’re] genuinely a Capricorn [laughs].

Rapp: One hundred percent! But I also think I’m clueless at the same time.

Erivo: It means you haven’t got to a place of “I know everything.” I don’t think we should ever get to that place. You’re always learning. All of these experiences are constantly teaching you about yourself — what you can give to your art and what you can’t. All of that stuff. So it’s fine not to know all of the time.… But I’m feeling very excited about the next couple of months.

Rapp: Speaking on behalf of everyone, we’re all thrilled. We as a collective are thrilled. I, specifically, am very thrilled. Very, very thrilled. I saw Bowen [Yang]—

Erivo: Oh, I love Bowen.

Rapp: He’s the greatest. He’s perfect. I saw him before the first trailer came out, and he was like, “You’re gonna lose your shit.” I was like, “Really? You think I’m going to lose my shit?” He was like, “Definitely.” And I heard the [vocal] lick at the end, and I was like, “Yeah, I’m good. I’m gonna kill myself. This is amazing.”

Erivo: I love what they’ve allowed us to do with the music in this piece. It’s not that we’ve rewritten the book or anything, but we’ve been allowed the space to put ourselves into the music.

Rapp: It shows!

Erivo: It’s been really lovely. Because it’s mammoth, and it has its own history, and people love it and people know it very well, so there could be the tendency to just do it as it was. But there wasn’t any of that. It was like, “You know the music. Do what feels the most truthful to you.” And that meant that singing this music was really pleasurable. I loved doing this.

Rapp: I’m so excited.

Erivo: It’s been fun these last couple months, and I think it’s going to be really crazy the next couple. Which is great.

Rapp: I’m sure. You’re gonna be tired. Hit your 3 a.m. workout and then go to work [laughs].

Erivo: Maybe! How are you taking care of yourself these next couple of months? Because I know that you’re trying to come out with [new music].

Rapp: I mean, I don’t know. I want to make sure that I have hit every possible turn. I want to run the creative part of my brain into the ground. I need to be so sure.

Erivo: I get that.

Rapp: Do you like to write any specific way? Do you start on piano all the time?

Erivo: We’ve been doing different things. Sometimes I’ll have an idea in my head, and I will sing out a vocal pad and write over that.

Rapp: Oh, sick!

Erivo: Or it will be piano or guitar. Sometimes there’s a story that I want to tell, so we start with the story. It just depends. I have synesthesia, so I see the color. I’ll be like, “Can you play something more in red?” And then I realize it’s actually more pink. “Can you play it more pink?”

Rapp: Do you feel that ever when you’re acting? Or is it just music?

Erivo: Just music. I’ve learned how to turn the dial down a little bit. But I just did this concert with an orchestra, and they started playing, and all I could see or feel was pink — really bright pink. It was hitting me in the back of my neck. It was the most visceral, physical experience. It’s a full-body experience. But that feeling is wonderful.

Rapp: That’s so wild. So cool.

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