Westside Gunn and pro wrestling go hand in hand.
The Buffalo rapper and Griselda Records founder is back with his first official studio album since 2023’s And Then Pray for Me after saying he didn’t want to make them anymore. But, when Mass Appeal rolled out there “Legend Has It” series last year where they released seven albums from seven different legends, Westside was inspired and reached out to Nas and pitched his idea for Heelmatic. The conversation was quick.
“I love what Peter Bittenbender and Nas are doing at Mass Appeal,” he tells me when stopping by the Billboard office earlier this week. “I told them what I was trying to do. I told them what it’d take to do it, and if they was down. It was like, ‘Bet.’ It wasn’t even, ‘Let me think about it. I want to be in that legend series before I hang it up because I’m not about to do it later like they did. I’m not about to do it 10-20 years from now like they did. I want to do my s—t now. I’m a legend now. I don’t want to wait till I’m 60 years old for you to tell me I’m a legend. The s—t I done did, nobody has done.”
Heelmatic is a play on Nas’ Illmatic and “Heels,” a brand tied to Gunn’s independent pro wrestling promotion 4th Rope, something that he’ll be more focused on even more as his rap career begins to wind down. “I need new energy,” Gunn explains. “That’s the only way I can stay in this s—t, bro. ‘Cause this s—t is corny. Look at this s—t, man. This whole industry is corny as f—k, bro. This s—t is f—king corny.”
Check out our conversation below, where he addressed the photo he took at WWE, Conway the Machine‘s Instagram comment trolling fans, his new album and what the future of 4th Rope looks like.
Last time we talked you were saying you didn’t want to make albums anymore, because you wanted to just put music out whenever you felt like it instead of having to deal with a release schedule. What was it about Mass Appeal’s “Legend Has It” series that put the battery in your back to then make an album?
I got the song “SummerSlam ’88” where I say “Motherf—ka, I’m a legend.” I was saying “I’m a legend” 10 years ago, and I feel like I’m at the end of my career. When I said I was gonna drop Awesome God 3, which would be my last solo album, I meant it. I just was inspired by “Legend Has It.”
Before I drop that album, I want to do something for New York because right now it just didn’t have that sound. All year long, I haven’t really heard no representation on a mainstream level of this sound, of this essence, of where we come from. It’s like nobody doing that s—t, you know what I’m saying? I want the Marvel comic book like Slick Rick. I wanna be a part of that wave. I want to see the Super Fly God Marvel comic book.
I respect the Mass Appeal for the dope s—t they’re doing because, at the end of the day, Griselda represents hip-hop, boom-bap to the core, underground to the core, and I felt like that whole movement was like bringing that essence back, that sound back, and I felt like I just wanted to be a part of that. I felt I respected what they did. I wanted to partner up and just do one for the streets.
Explain the title.
It’s just a play off Nas’ Illmatic, which is his classic first album — and you know everything we doing is “Heels.” The heel is the bad guy in wrestling, so we got the “Heel the World Tour.” We just had a sold out first leg and we about to start the second leg in February. It’s like we healing the world, man. I just wanted to play off the Illmatic and represent New York one time.
There’s a lot of that upstate New York versus downstate, and all of that s—t. F—k all that. I ain’t trying to hear none of that. I’m about to show New York, New York. You know what I’m saying? I’m gonna put my big-ass face in Times Square. I’m about to put my flyers all around the city starting tomorrow. You about to see my face for two months straight around New York, I’m everywhere on purpose. I didn’t get one billboard in Times Square, this time I got two. Like I bought a billboard just to put Westside Gunn — just the name — in Times Square. It don’t even got no picture on it. It just says, “Westside Gunn.”
You got Nas on here blacking out, how’d you get him on a verse? Was it harder getting the deal done or getting that verse?
It’s a respect thing. Nas seen what I’ve been doing for all this time.
Not to take anything away from his recent work with Hit-Boy, but I’ve been waiting for OGs like that to get with this sound. I be wanting him and guys like him, Jadakiss, Ghostface & Raekwon to go make a tape with The Alchemist or with Daringer or with V Don. That’s that gritty New York s—t.
You know, if I curated Jadakiss’ album, it’d be one of the illest albums of all time. We talked about this last time you were here. That’s what I’m saying. Even with Mass Appeal they approached me to EP a project for Rae & Ghost. There’s a lot coming from this relationship.
You’ve been saying that you don’t want to have to make albums regularly anymore, but you’re still planning on A&R’ing and curating once those days are truly done?
Of course — I’m the culture, bro. I love hip-hop, I’ll never leave the culture, I’ll never leave that side. My sound hasn’t steered away yet. It’s still the same raw, grimy s—t I’ve been doing since 2012. Still to this day.
And you’ll be still be putting people on and platforming artists like that kid Brother Tom Sos?
Yeah, he’s on Heelmatic to remind you. I’ll probably even shoot a video next week for that, because it’s one of those ones. And when you hear the lyrics, all of it’s true. “I just lost my homie Lando by his own man, though.” He got killed by one of his best friends. Real street s—t. I wrote that verse probably the day after he died; the funeral didn’t even happen yet. I’m talking like, “Still having flashbacks in the red Lambo.”
Nobody never did no s—t like that in Buffalo. I really took the Lambo through Cold Springs on Lando’s block on their “Hood Day,” and I’m not even from they hood. It’s Buffalo s—t. It’s like this: If I don’t do it, who gonna do it? I just had to bring the Rolls Royce Spectre through the hood, hang out, chill — because we gotta inspire the next ones. And again, I ain’t never compromise, bro. I keep the s—t raw, grimy, and I want to keep doing that. I’m actually just trying to open up other people in New York eyes. Like, “Yo, man, let’s do this s—t.” All this separation, all this being out of touch. Let’s just get back to this s—t.
Y’all podcasting, y’all doing every f—king thing, but picking up that f—king pen and getting this s—t popping. Y’all so worried about them f—king likes. Where y’all f—king pen at? What? Nobody don’t rap no more? Everybody a f—king streamer. Y’all ain’t never seen me on a stream in your life. What is we doing? This is what we do now? This is what our music has come to now? This? Okay.
Well, I think too that a lot of them cats, man — they came from that major label record system, where they want to put out a hit record instead.
Them days are over. You gotta move with the time. My whole approach, every time I ever made an album, you notice I don’t take longer than a week. This one took longer, because I did it across the world.
How long did it take you to make?
I think like two months. But just because I was in different countries, different settings. I just combine the days, it probably was still seven days. [Laughs.] I feel like every time I approached the album, I was having fun. That’s why I can make an album in a week because I’m just talking my s—t. I go shopping this week, I’m talking about Celine, I’m talking about wrestling, I’m talking about art. I might buy an art piece or go to a gallery. I’m just doing fly s—t. I might have joked about going to buy Rolls Royce, but I’m really about to go buy a Rolls Royce. That’s what I do. If I say I want to eat f—king steak in Italy tomorrow, I’ma eat steak in Italy tomorrow, and still be here for the album drop.
You had said that you were going on your first international tour, but I’ve seen Conway and Benny go on tours in Europe. Haven’t you guys done stuff across the pond?
That was Conway and Benny. I never went.
You go to Paris for a week, and mentioned going to Italy earlier. But then I was curious if it had to do anything to do with your old legal stuff. Why haven’t you done a tour since you’ve been able to travel?
I’ve never had a Westside Gun tour in the States. I don’t even like performing. Conway and Benny are rappers, entertainers, whatever you want to say, like they really do that s—t. I knew the future. I knew those was two of the illest people in the world, even though that was my family. I always was the hustler. I always was fly. I always was the art guy, the fashion guy, the wrestling guy, the cool dude — I wasn’t known for rapping.
A lot of acts tour for a bag.
Yeah, I make more money off my couch, but I owe the people now, though. I got a different approach now. This “Heeling the World” s—t is different. Like, me even saying what I’m doing with New York and bringing that energy back — and I’m not even trying to go left or go crazy — but I promise you, when I came out with the whole Fly God imagery, it was based off the story of Jesus. That’s why when people see that cover, they see me as a kid with the thorns and all of that.
You gotta think, when I came out and was doing all that, New York wasn’t strong at all. It was all Atlanta and down South. So, when I brought out that image, it was like, “Yo, I’m about to bring this sound back. It’s about to be the second coming.” It was the return of the sound again, but I’m gonna put it into the mainstream, I’ma bring people into our world. That was always the goal. It wasn’t ever for me to be the the the best MC. It was like, “Nah, we gonna change the game. We about to bring this s—t back. What we doing is some fly s—t.”
I wanted Conway and Benny to shine. So, in the beginning, it was a lot more of pushing them.
The first thing I heard from you guys was Reject 2. You were posting stuff on SoundCloud.
That’s when we was in the mud, Hall & Nash. Then as I just kept going, I started getting better. I never took offense when people said, “Oh, you the worst on Griselda,” or “You the third member.”
Yeah, but you always brought something different to it. It was more like a I don’t know, like a style thing. You always had creative lines though. Funny, fly s—t. They were more lyrical.
And people understood them more. I probably just said six, seven brands, and motherf—kers don’t even know what I’m talking about in one rhyme. It sounds like I’m talking gibberish to somebody that don’t know what I’m talking about.
Jay, Biggie, Wu-Tang were always like, “Yeah, I know about this s—t, and you don’t.” Like talking about Cristal and Evisu early.
Exactly. I said, “Loro Piana suede jumpers looking gorgeous.” People don’t rock Loro Piana. People don’t even know what Loro Piana is and I’m about to wear Loro Piana tonight to dinner. It’s a different of s—t.
Conway recently commented on a post about you guys beefing and being family where he said, “Nah, we not family.” But clearly he was trolling, because he and Benny are both on this project — and people still don’t seem to understand that even if you guys maybe don’t get along at times, you’re still family. I feel like you’ve explained this a bunch of times.
That made my heart smile, because when I read that, it really meant, “I love my family.” Y’all read it wrong. That means y’all need to shut the f—k up. Y’all keep asking the same dumb ass s—t. What you want me to say? Yeah, I hate them n—as. Like, is y’all happy now? Simple as that. I don’t take it the same way y’all do. We from Eastside Buffalo.
The s—t corny, because it’s like — how many times I gotta explain this s—t every f—king time? This is my family. You don’t gotta hang out with your family all the time, you don’t gotta talk to your family all the time. That’s your family. We grown-ass men, bro. We in our 40s, man, with kids and families and bills and all type of s—t. People want us to move how they want us to move. I ain’t never met nobody with motion worry about us. They worried about they f—king self. It’s people with no motion worried about us. You know what I’m saying?
I also wanted to ask about the Erykah Badu & Alchemist album. You’re on there a couple times. I feel like she’s used your adlibs before on something.
We did the Hollywood Bowl, that probably what it was. We rocked that s—t. When I dropped kicks, she rocked both of those. Dropped like her little commercials for him. It’s love. She texts me every week.
How did you guys link up? Was it through Alchemist or before that?
Way before that. She just loves what I do and the craft and how I create s—t as a curator, as an MC. She thinks I can rhyme. We got a dope, special relationship. I went there to her crib to do that s—t. That wasn’t no, “Send it” s—t. When my kids was born, she hit me. She actually hit me to get on this, but we’ll save that. You never know. Maybe a deluxe or something. But she reached out personally to me last week. Like, “Is it something I can still get on, bro?”
It’s just a respect thing, man. Out of a lot of people in this industry, she definitely one of the ones that’s genuine. I know the love is real for real.
You had got into a little thing with WWE with using their images and stuff like that, but then you recently posted a pic at their office.
You know, it’s crazy. Nobody knows what the real reason is. People just assume that. I never said that was the reason.
Didn’t you get kicked out of a show?
Yeah, I got kicked out. S—t broke my heart. My heart was just killed.
So, it wasn’t over images or the audio that you’ve used? You changed the artwork to some of your tapes because you were upset that they played you?
Let me just say this: first of all, I purchased that image. It wasn’t like I took that s—t from them, so that’s one thing. Second thing is, there’s a chain of command in everything. This is the corporate world, so you gotta understand that there’s sharks out here that’s looking for s—t all day. Yeah, we deal with that stuff all the time. Imagine you doing that, but I got this s—t in Times Square.
So, a motherf—ker that don’t know no better, and he just searching for s—t. He gonna be like, “Holy s—t, this some WWE s—t. Let me put a cease and desist on this.” It might not even make it to the people I’m speaking to. I don’t know that, so I’m taking offense — but it’s really corporate bulls—t that was just a complaint. I spoke to Nick Khan himself.
All that needed to be had was a conversation.
It was just a whole bunch of bulls—t. People in the way, middlemen that don’t get it. One person had a little vendetta against me, and he was doing s—t. So, when I spoke to Nick, he was like, “Man, if you don’t put that s—t back in your music…” He think it’s cool. That’s free marketing for them. He thinks the billboard is cool. He like, “S—t, you helping us, you’re pushing us. Wait a minute. You spent how much to put our s—t up there?”
That’s like somebody saying, “Hey man, Hellmatic coming out Thursday. I’m about to spend $80,000 to put Heellmatic billboards up in Chicago.” What I’m gonna say? Take it down? F—k no. There’s so many f—king fake ass, bootleg Griselda shirts with the scorpions going crazy right now, especially even overseas. I be seeing people in motherf—king Italy with ironed-on Fly God; I think it’s cool. They took their time out to iron this motherf—ker for me. It’s not like I’m sitting up here sending cease and desists.
Are you gonna announce something with WWE and 4th Rope? Is there anything you could tell us about the conversation?
I want everything to come out how it comes out. But let me just say this: it’s all love. Nobody seen that coming. I remember when that s—t happened. We all thought it was f—ked up, because of how you promote it. It was just dumb and short-sighted. Everybody thought that. A lot of people I know personally stopped watching them for that. That was just a sign of growth.
I just feel like the energy right now, even in my life, man, is God and growth It’s just like man, it’s God and and just growth. I think people are seeing me grow as a man as well like “You know what? He’s not bad after all.” I talk my s—t, but I have fun, man.
So, 4th Rope is your independent wrestling promotion. Can you explain the schedule? Is it just special events that you’re doing right now?
Right now we just trying to keep it like once a month. We’re not doing it where it’s weekly or two, three times a week. We trying to take it to different markets… We did Six Flags, we’re doing something in Queens, we took it to Paris Fashion Week, we did SXSW, Palms Casino in Las Vegas, The 2300 in Philly where is ECW is from, sold that out.
When I saw you guys were doing Melrose Ballroom that reminded me of watching early ECW on pay-per-view as a kid. It’s that vibe.
The celebrity list is already crazy, you’re gonna be surprised who even in this motherf—ker.
Do you stream the events?
Go to the 4th Rope page on on YouTube. You stream them all the time on there? This is the second live one. The first was the one in Vegas. We did a midnight show in Vegas, so it was 3 a.m. on the East Coast. Motherf—kers was trying to stay up. I was trying to stay up in Vegas. So, people watched the playback. Now it’s primetime 8 o’clock. What the f—k y’all doing Thursday night? Nothing. Like if you not in New York, you need to be watching this. It’s crazy. We gonna play songs from the album, we got a live concert, the matches are f—king crazy, we got celebrity guests coming through.
There’s an interview with XXL where you said Smoke DZA writes the storylines and the promos.
Smoke helps with everything. We book flights together for these motherf—kers. We do everything.
What’s the future for 4th Rope look like? Doing what the Big Three did and getting a TV deal?
We’ve been approached already. It can be on TV in 2027 if I took the deal right now. But right now, I’m keeping it underground, and building it up a little more, so it’s worth more. Investors already done called, partners already called, and it’s just so many places that we still have to go. I still wanna do s—t on our own before we get them partners. We haven’t did L.A. yet. We still got to hit big markets. Let’s keep doing what we doing. A lot of our wrestlers already in the last two years are in WWE now.
I feel like it’s a little different from other promotions because a lot of promotions are regional. You’re kind of jumping around.
Everywhere is different. Everywhere is a new energy. It gives me opportunity to design one-of-one merch for each city. So, if we go to Denver, you gonna see me there cooking one-of-one vintage Denver Nugget s—t. The old Mutombo Nugget jersey, the old John Elway with the royal blue scorpions on it from ’91, the Melo Nuggets, the baby blue joint with the scorpions. The Avalanche. I bring wrestling to your city, but now here’s the the fashion, here’s the art. The merch is unique to that specific region.
I gotta inspire myself if I’m gonna have fun. If I’m not doing this, I’m having fun with my kids. People want me to keep going, but it’s like where I’m gonna get the inspiration from? The f—king podcasters, the streamers? Start an Onlyfans? What the f—k am I supposed to do?
You gonna be on any podcasts after this? [Laughs.]
I’m about to do Joe and Jada because I owe Joe ass. He talk too much s—t, so I gotta go up there with Joe.
I feel like you’ll still be active somewhat, like features and curating projects.
That’s what I’m saying. I’ma curate, I’ma keep doing what I’m doing. Me and Benny gonna cook up Tana Talk 5. Everybody needs that. This is the first time I even mentioned that. I wanna do Liz 3 with Armani Caesar, I wanna do some with Estee Nack again. These are people that I have fun doing s—t with. Like you said, people do s—t for money, I don’t do s—t for money. I do s—t because I love it and I want to do it. The Rae & Ghost project, I would love to do that, I would be honored. Peter asked me and it’d be surreal. Like, damn, I get paid to do this? What the f—k? This is Rae & Ghost. It’s dope to me.
So, what’s the status with Awesome Good 3 and Michelle Records with Stove God Cooks? You mentioned earlier this year that Awesome God was coming out around March, but instead decided to do Heelmatic instead.
I literally had a meeting about Michelle Records yesterday, but Awesome God 3, I wanna do in the Spring. This Heelmatic s—t is about to be a wave. This is literally just the beginning. I’m not about to spread it out forever, but I’m gonna push Heelmatic all the way until February and end it with the Heel the World Tour, where it’s a big celebration and we close the Heelmatic chapter and end it with the Awesome God 3 chapter.
